Antifreeze

[204 Escape]

Wally World has DOW RV Antifreeze for $3.97/gallon. It goes to -50*

Is this the right stuff ?? AND, should it go lower in degrees to be safe, here in Kansas ???

 

[Fun Times]

Wally World has DOW RV Antifreeze for $3.97/gallon. It goes to -50*

Is this the right stuff ?? AND, should it go lower in degrees to be safe, here in Kansas ???

Are you going to drain the water out of the engine/exhaust system Ect, Or fill it with antifreeze?

 

[204 Escape]

I watched the guy the first time that he did it, and he pulled off a hose or two, (don't remember for sure), and poured the antifreeze into the hose.

I normally don't normally get to excited over a few $$, BUT, I'm on U.E. right now, and watching my already short income !!!

 

[Fun Times]

I watched the guy the first time that he did it, and he pulled off a hose or two, (don't remember for sure), and poured the antifreeze into the hose.

I normally don't normally get to excited over a few $$, BUT, I'm on U.E. right now, and watching my already short income !!!

Then it's cheaper to just drain all the water out of the engine, Ect. On the engine look for the blue drain plugs, You should have around 4-7 of them with out looking it up your's should have 5. Make sure a lot of water come out of each plug, Also not a bad idea to poke around each hole just to make sure any and all sand, Ect comes out, Your manual should tell you in good detail on how to winterize your boat/engine, Also lower your drive so the water will drain out and not hold rain water and freeze up and crack some place. And if you have a air compressure it is not a bad idea to blow out any standing water around the stern drive area and the intake water holes, And Behind the prop. On the engine Just leave the blue plugs out till you go to use the boat again. Another good idea that I even need to do here in CA is cover the engine it's self up to keep it dry from moister so it will not get old looking do to surfes rust, Ect. I used a old bimini top canvace we had from a warranty job that we normaly would have put in the trash.

First treat the fuel with stablizer shake the boat to mix the fuel tank then run the engine for 10-12 minutes at 1300 RPMs on the garden hose, And if you really want to be safe with the fuel in the carb then when you are about done running the engine find the power plug to the fuel pump and unplug it and let the carb run out of fuel then try to start it a few times just to be sure the fuel is out, This way you know the fuel will not get varnished up and clog up the jet's, Ect, inside the carb. Your fuel pump should be mounted next to the water circulating pump on the left side, The wire plug will lay on top of the intake manifold by the thermostat housing. By the way it is better now a days to leave the fuel tank as low as you can so you don't have to deal with bad fuel next year, Even after treating the fuel it still could/will go bad after 6 month's 3 months max if not treated. Unhook the battery, Leave the hull drain plug out with the bow as high as you can and good to go. I think I got it all But read the manual also. Just in case i hit a

 

[dave]

the easiest way i found to protect the engine from freezing is to fill it with rv antifreeze. take a 5 gallon bucket and drill a hole in the bottom and fit a through-hull fitting in it with a 1/2 barb, then attach an old piece of garden hose with the female end on it with about 4 feet of hose. like boat tech said there will be drains on either side of the block in the center about 1/2'' above the oil pan, a drain plug on the bottom of each manifold and ther might be drain plug on the side of your exhaust riser, take these out and drain all the water and then put them back in. screw your muffs onto the hose from your bucket and stick them on your drive. have an assistant fold the hose over and hold it pinched tight and then put 4gallons of antifreeze in the bucket, start then engine and get your assistant to release the hose and shut it down when the bucket is empty. your engine will be full of anti-freeze and will not rust or corrode inside over the winter.

 

[dave]

i don't agree with boat tech on leaving the fuel tank empty,i always add fuel conditioner and fill the tank and then run the engine to fill the pump, lines and carb. in a climate where the temp goes up and down all winter condensation will occure in the tank and carb and will cause water issues in the spring. i also seen more corrision happen in an empty carb than a properly treated full carb.

 

[Lakeside Restorations]

Wally World has DOW RV Antifreeze for $3.97/gallon. It goes to -50*

Is this the right stuff ?? AND, should it go lower in degrees to be safe, here in Kansas ???

It would depend on what it is made of. Im guessing for under 4.00 per gallon it is probably for plumbing winterization only.

Do not use alcohol based RV/Marine anti freezes for boat engine winterizing! It is flamable & It is not recomended by the manufacturers of the product or engines, it also does not have the same lubricity to it. The Pink RV/Marine anti freeze that is supposed to be used is a polypropelyne blend that is environementally friendly (unlike the regular pink & green antifreeze that you would normally ad to your coolant tank or radiator..

That said when using the right product, the winterization is done better & safer for both you & the boat/engine.. AND YES using the right antifreeze is better than just draining the block. It will help keep stuff safe & it will cut down on corrosion. Jamie / Lakeside Restorations

 

[Fun Times]

i don't agree with boat tech on leaving the fuel tank empty.

Hi Dave, The reasons I say this is because more then likely he has a plastic fuel tank And [IMHO] that should help keep the condensation way down over an Aluminum fuel tank to start with in the winter time, Also now a days the way the fuel companys are making the fuels, The fuel just does not last as long. So yes water is bad to run But old lower octane is bad also, And if you add water to it next year then you will have even more problems to deal with.[You will see what I mean here about the extra water in the fuel if you read the Question/Answer coming up below] Also the Fuel Filter/Water Separator should hold some of the water back from getting into the engine for the most part anyways. But bad low octane, varnished, sticky, fuel cloging up fuel pump, jet's, Ect, Could cost more in the long run over all as well [as with a lot of water I know if not carefull] Because you might need to rebuild or replace A few parts, Carb, pump's Ect, And still worry about getting out 30 plus gallons of old fuel and putting in new fuel again And in most cases some water seems to make the engine just run bad over all like old gas does, And could do about the same amount of engine damage Running either one if not carefull. [Can't win either way] I don't know but I'v always thought it was a better idea to leave them empty But it was hard to tell guys this that have been around any kind of service for awhile because every one has always said to leave them full for so long, But now I can say leave them empty with more confidence because I found some one I know in the marine industry that is trust worthy Because of who he is in the marine industry that has done some testing and knows guy's in the fuel making process and he now has said it is a better idea to leave the tank's empty then full And I agree with him to a point. To me plastic should be ok and not get a bunch of condensation in the fuel tank,Aluminum on the other hand might not be such a grate idea as I could see more condensation build up in some cases, And if you have a fiberglass tank then Because todays fuels are eating the fiberglass away and cloging up the fuel system in a bad way. I went and found where Bob Teague owner of Teague custom marine, A big high perfomance boat service and engine builder shop And teck writer for powerboats magazine wrote about the fuel tanks being full or not. http://www.powerboatmag.com/february-2009.html. http://www.teaguecustommarine.com/. Please read SETTLING THE DEBATE below about the fuel tank.

Dave on the carb being empty or not I can agree their with you on this. Because the material used to make a carb could get cold enough to make condensation on the inside rusting it out But if he keeps it covered with a canvace or something like that I would think it would help keep the condensation way down. I just hate the idea of old fuel in their also is all, Some times it seems like you can't win either way you go. Sorry 204 I did not think of it that way when I wrote it out to drain the carb. It must be the CA thing we don't half to deal with a hole lot of winterizing to much here, It's prety much get the water out and treat the fuel unhook the battery and cover it up, Well At least in some of the areas around here anyways you need to winterize it, And if you want to go boating on December 25th you can And some times in shorts still.
When we get new boats from the manufacture back east and they winterize the engine they just drain the engine with out any antifreeze installed But I can see it helping also. So 204 it's up to you over all, And I'm thinking it might be the better thing to do out there, And I know the manual shows you to do it that way as I think about it more.



February 2009 Teague on Tech.

SETTLING THE DEBATE

Question: Thanks for all the great advice. I utilized your insight on a past issue for fogging fuel-injected engines. I fogged my MerCruiser 502 Magnum engine with Marvel Mystery Oil dispensed from a garden sprayer.

My friends and I, all owners of performance boats, debate regularly on whether to leave the fuel tanks low when winterizing or fill them up to minimize condensation. We all agree to put stabilizer in. I subscribe to the theory that there is nothing better than fresh gas when starting up in the spring. I usually dwindle the tank down to less than a quarter tank. My friends don’t necessarily agree with me. Can you settle our debate?

Kris Lukowitz
Sayreville, N.J.

Answer: The concept of filling the tanks to minimize condensation during storage was the standard procedure in years past. It is still common practice on airplanes. The problem is that most automotive gasolines purchased at the pump today are not the same quality as they were when it was common practice to fill the tanks prior to storage.

It is likely that your fuel also contains oxygenating components such as ethanol, isopropanol and ether that are currently used to replace MTBE. These additives are injected into the fuel during the reformulation process. Ethanol, isopropanol and ether are polar solvents, which means they are water-soluble. When they are present, condensation can be absorbed into the fuel resulting in further deterioration. The components added during the reformulation process also have the tendency to evaporate more rapidly than the base gasoline, which has the same effect as lowering the octane rating.

Aviation fuels are required to be higher quality and do not deteriorate rapidly, so it makes sense that filling the tanks on airplanes is usually the practice.

I used to believe that leaving the tanks full of fuel was the best practice. About five years ago, I switched to leaving them as low as possible as a result of tests that we performed on fuel to see how it held up during long storage periods. The bottom line is that modern pump gasoline tends to get stale faster than we imagined.

When you bring the boat out of storage, I recommend filling the tanks with premium gasoline. Using the higher-octane gasoline will improve the overall quality of fuel when mixed with the existing fuel in the boat’s tank(s). In addition, using a quality fuel stabilizer can’t hurt. In short, you win the debate.

– Bob Teague is Powerboat’s lead test driver and a columnist for nearly 40 years.

LOW WATER PRESSURE

Question: After my engine blew up last year, I read an article where you addressed placing the thermostat where it belongs in the middle of the thermostat housing on a 1992 MerCruiser 502 EFI Magnum big-block Chevy, not underneath it.

Now that I have rebuilt the engine, changed the recirculation pump, seawater pump, and installed a new thermostat, the engine only has about 2 psi water pressure and it still gets hot on long runs. It has stumped two mechanics in my area. Do you have any suggestions?

Don Moeller
Essexville, Mich.

Answer: If your thermostat housing only has two hoses going to the exhaust manifolds (and none going to the exhaust risers), the thermostat is positioned up in the thermostat housing and not in the intake manifold.

There is usually a cork gasket that goes up in the housing first (some models have an O-ring). Then the thermostat goes in with the spring toward the intake manifold (down). Next, the sleeve (spacer) goes in with the opening passage aligned to the front, then the gasket is used to seal the thermostat housing assembly to the intake manifold. With the thermostat properly installed, water is always directed to the exhaust manifolds for cooling. As the engine warms up, the thermostat opens and allows cool water to enter the water that is being recirculated in the engine.

If you have a water-pressure gauge connected to the engine block, it is common to observe water-pressure fluctuations caused by the thermostat opening and closing. You can usually observe a corresponding rise and fall of water temperature on your gauge.

Ultimately, if everything is working correctly, once the engine reaches normal operating temperature, the thermostat regulates the amount of cool water entering the engine in order to maintain the desired water temperature.

If your thermostat is installed correctly, and is operating correctly, you should not experience an overheating condition on long, higher-rpm runs. If you are, your raw water supply is inadequate because of a flow restriction somewhere.

The easiest possible restriction to check for is the heat exchangers that are in the 1 1/4-inch supply hose to the thermostat. Depending on your engine year, you may have one or two heat exchangers situated after the raw water pump. The best way to inspect the heat exchangers for obstructions is by removing the hoses and sighting through them. If the passage tubes are clogged, you can use a 1/8-inch aluminum welding rod to clean them. If your heat exchanger has end caps, remove the single bolt in the center of the end-cap plate, then remove the cap and rubber gasket, which will allow you to view through the water passage tubes.

If all the heat exchanger tubes are clear, the flow restriction is likely located in your transom assembly. There is a molded water supply hose that connects the bell housing to the inner transom plate. A water neck is bolted to the transom plate on the inside of the boat that the 1 1/4-inch water hose that supplies the raw water pump is clamped to. The molded hose is held in place with plastic screw-in wedges that press the outside diameter of the hose against the housings, creating a seal.

I have seen many cases where the housings started to corrode around the hose, eventually collapsing the hose. The problem is usually more common at the transom end of the hose compared to the gimbal bell housing end. The result is a smaller opening that creates a flow restriction. I would be willing to bet that this is your problem given the age of your boat, and that you have checked for other possibilities.

You can inspect the hose by removing the water neck off the inside of the transom plate. It is held in place by two bolts. You will first have to remove the water-supply hose. It is likely that you will need to replace the gasket between the water neck and the transom housing when you put things back together.

If the hose is collapsed and the restriction exists, it will be necessary to replace the hose. In order to do this, you will need to remove the drive. There are slots in the plastic wedges to facilitate unscrewing the wedges out of the hose. Once the plastic wedges are removed, you should be able to remove the hose. It is important that the OD of the hose is able to seal into the openings in the transom assembly and bell housing.

If the surface of the opening is deteriorated, we have successfully repaired the finish by using a JB Weld and sanding the surface smooth after it dries. Make sure that the hose does not protrude too far into the water passages at either end. I have seen instances where the excessively long end of the hose folds over (like a flap) and closes off the opening during high-flow periods.

– Bob Teague is Powerboat’s lead test driver and a columnist for nearly 40 years.

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[Fun Times]

I found a little more info about the fuels we use today and what they can do to the fuel system. Here is the link to it. http://www.enertechlabs.com/ethanol_in_gasoline.htm .But I copied and pasted the info below also. I know it's a lot to read, But the better info for our boat's is down near the end.

Ethanol in Gasoline
Ethanol Problems
Ethanol as a Replacement for MTBE

Ethanol is the Future, Ethanol is Coming, Ethanol is Here; there is a new headline about Ethanol nearly every day now.
Ethanol production is a well understood technology with the potential improve dramatically in efficiency that may in the future offer a partial solution to US energy needs. It is not the be all, end all, but it can help.
Beyond the current hype, Ethanol plays a small but important role in today?s fuels marketplace. In the future this role will likely become much more significant and even vital to our energy program.
Ethanol is best known as ?grain alcohol? or sometimes as ?moonshine?. It is produced by taking a grain, such as corn, crushing it and mixing with water and yeasts to form a mash. This mash is allowed to ferment for a few days. The wort (fermented mash) is then boiled in a still and with the help of the cooling tower it distills the vapors into a pure alcohol.
Ethanol can be blended with petroleum gasoline from 0.1%-99.9% to 1%.
Most commonly blends of 10% to 15% are available in the US. However blends up to 85% (E85) are possible for vehicles designed and manufactured to run on this fuel. These Flex-Fuel vehicles have had changes made to fuel system and engine components to prevent problems caused by the solvency and high level of corrosion caused by Ethanol and to the computer software to allow it to operate the engine on a broad range of fuels.
Of late, many Automobile and Light Truck Manufacturers have touted their Flex-Fuel vehicles that will run on gasoline containing up to 85% Ethanol (E85). The problem today is that out of 185,000 gas stations in the US only about 640 currently offer E85.
We have recently seen several issues of concern that appear to be related to gasoline containing Ethanol (Gasohol).
Blends above 10% are likely to cause problems in vehicles not designed for alcohol. These problems include delamination (chemical breakdown) of rubber, plastic, and synthetic components such as; rubber, plastic, and synthetic hoses, fuel lines, plastic fuel pumps, plastic fuel tanks, fiberglass fuel tanks, fuel tanks that are epoxy coated, or with rubberized, or plasticized liners, and aluminum, copper, brass, or bronze fuel system and injection system components.
Vehicles stored with gasoline containing Ethanol in the fuel tank are more likely to have problems with the alcohol causing component corrosion, deterioration, and breakdown.
Special plastics, corrosion resistant stainless steel and other more expensive components must be used in any component that touches fuel containing alcohol.
Ethanol is much more hygroscopic than regular gasoline. This holding of dissolved or suspended water can lead to more component corrosion; and gum, varnish, and carbon deposit formation problems.
Ethanol is not as volatile as gasoline, therefore as the percentage of alcohol increases; the engine becomes progressively more difficult to start in cold weather conditions.
Ethanol is a strong solvent and has been used by industry for hundreds of years to clean various types of contaminants and to dissolve and suspend solids.
Gasoline with dissolved solids (plastics, styrene?s, rubber materials, etc.) that will tend to reform as the fuel evaporates. The reforming of the dissolved material shows up as deposits in the fuel system and engine. This material has shown up as deposits on the throttle plate, injector?s piston crowns, and exhaust valves. It is also a problem with PCV?s systems and turbochargers.
In some cases, particularly in the marine markets, gasoline containing Ethanol has been found to saturate and partially dissolve fiberglass fuel tanks. This has been found to cause severe engine problems and very serious safety concerns from leakage.
There is also a problem where Gasoline, MTBE, Ethanol, and Water come together. This combination can cause formations of a thick, gooey, black material that wreaks havoc on fuel systems.
There are also supply issues because Ethanol must be blended at the rack. Due to its extreme corrosiveness Ethanol will generally not be pre-blended and stored in regular tanks. If pre-blended, it could severely corrode storage tanks and fuel delivery equipment.
One might ask, it the fuel refiners and distributors are that concerned about their equipment, should we be concerned about storage and use in our equipment.
Enertech Labs now offers products to control, ameliorate, and even eliminate these problems. We can disperse water from fuel, reduce or eliminate corrosion, prevent the formation and build-up of deposits, and clean and remove the existing deposits.
Contact Enertech Labs today to ask about our OctaPlus line of products for gasoline's.

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[dave]

boat tech, we don't use ethanol in gas around here so would you still leave stuff empty here as well?

 

[Chris E]

boat tech, we don't use ethanol in gas around here so would you still leave stuff empty here as well?

i store them full, with a full bottle of merc's fuel stabilizer. current fuel only has a shelf life of 3 months so stabilizer is a must. i don't think we have ethanol in ontario yet either.

 

[Chris]

i store them full, with a full bottle of merc's fuel stabilizer. current fuel only has a shelf life of 3 months so stabilizer is a must. i don't think we have ethanol in ontario yet either.

That's what I do as well. I typically condense all my jerry cans into one and then dump fuel stabalizer into the one full tank.

For my motors, I run fuel with stabalizer through them and then run them out of gas and fog them. Where it's not realistic to fog, like on my saws as one example, I just do the stabalizer deal, run the engine for a bit and leave it more or less full of fuel with stabalizer in it.

I'm not sure if it's the "by the book" way. But that approach has served me well over the years.

-Chris

 

[Fun Times]

boat tech, we don't use ethanol in gas around here so would you still leave stuff empty here as well?

Well I will be honest I don't care for the idea of leaving them full myself, But my idea may not make it right either. After reading a different link about ethanol today it said you should Keep the fuel tank above one-quarter full, especially during cold weather, to help reduce condensed moisture and gas line freeze-up. Here is the link. http://www.nwicc.cc.ia.us/pages/continuing/business/ethanol/Module5.htm
Also Dave because you don't have ethanol In your area I would say you are better off doing it your way then just to be safe, Because it has worked for years for so many people, But try not to let it sit for to long.

I will say this for what it's worth, We have owened a 1982 bayliner 19.5 capri with a Aluminum fuel tank and we have never treated the fuel and we never left it filled in the winter time, We never had a problem back then with any water in the fuel from sitting. The only time we had water in the fuel was when we had to buy fuel while at a fuel dock on the lake to finish our long trips, And the boat ran really bad. Now I have a 1996 21ft performance boat I bought last year and it has 2 Aluminum fuel tanks in it, And I left them low last year with treatment only, And I did not touch the boat from october till february, It sit's out side and when i lifted the engine hatch in february, The engine was soking wet with moisture that I had to dry it off and cover it up with the canvace. When I went to use it in late may I filled the tanks up to about 3/4 each and the engine ran grate, No sign of water at all, Even after running it I checked and changed the fuel filters, No water at all. So either I am lucky or it's a CA thing.

I kind of brought this up in a different forum, And there is another boat teck guy there that seems to agree with me also And has been doing the same, But like I said I know this dose not make it right, And if some one did a poll it would more then likely say to leave them full, But here is what we talked about in the other forum.
After seeing this link. http://www.enertechlabs.com/ethanol_in_gasoline.htm it helps me say with more confidence what I have always thought to my self, It is a better idea to leave the fuel tank's empty then full while sitting over the winter. And I found some one that is a teck writer, & owns a service shop, & Also builds high performance engine and stern drives, for the high performance marine industry that said about the same thing below.February 2009 Teague on Tech.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJason
Thats the way I go to. And this is why. I live in New England, up here you don't know if you'll have a 3 month or 6 month winter. If its a prolonged winter, and the gas does in fact spoil, it's a lot easier and cheaper to pump out a few gallons of gas, than it is tens or hundreds.

And also keeping in mind with the bad economy going on there is a hole lot more boats out there that are just sitting throughout this whole year already, Giving the last time the boat was fueled up from who knows when more of a chance to go bad sooner even if treated, And like you said who knows how long it will be before the boat get's used again because of the boats owner's that are losing there job's now a day's, And they don't have the extra money to go out and use them now. I seen A report some one posted from AZ, They said the avarage fuel for boats that was bought between 2006 to 2009 has decreased by 31%. That is a lot of boats sitting even in the summer.

So guy's in the end of all of this I will say it is better to do what ever has been working for you over the years that you have been doing this for winter storage, Because I would hate to be the one that has you do something different then what you are use to doing and then it turn's out wrong and does damage to your engine. I would feel varry bad about that, Because I would take it to heart, But that's just me.

PS, I do agree that Anti-freeze is the better way to go.